There is a particular class (I have 4 students in this grade) here in the high school that presently does not have positive leaders. The leaders in the class use bullying, talking back to teachers, entertaining the class as tools to be in control. Lack of structure only makes this situation worse. I'm struggling with picturing a Student Led Classroom with this group of students. So far, this group has done no self-regulation.
As for the interrelated room...some of my students don't have the cognitive ability to do a "student led classroom", although my team does that on a daily basis....adjusting to students needs.
I think that in order to have a student lead classroom the teacher would have to release control slowly. Especially in a class that has behavior issues. I also want to say that not every student or class is ready to have control. Our freshman this year are behaviorally horrible and I would not trust them to get anything done. However our seniors would be rock stars about it!
It would be interesting to see if a teacher could present a project or topic and get buy in from this troublesome class. I think it would take a great deal of planning and thinking outside the box, though.
I have the same concerns for one of my classes. I really feel like my students are acting out because they A) want control and B) are not invested in class. On paper, the student-led classroom is a model to fix both of these issues, but I've found that an unsuccessful model can be worse than our current arrangement. This makes it difficult to keep trying...
My concern would be on who does the discipline, and how it is administered. My hope would be that none would be needed, but that, depending on the class makeup probably would not happen.. I think that topic would have to be discussed and a plan set in place before starting the student led classroom. I can see some students being very strict, depending on who needed the discipline, and some letting a lot slide.
Maybe class rules / consequences that they help come up with. I do that at the beginning of the year and they are accountable. They also don't have to ask the consequence because they already know.
I can also see that if a student got irritated with another student earlier in the day, by the time they got a student led classroom in the afternoon they may still be holding an issue with them. So I would want to make sure they understand they need to be consistent!
I think that just has to be part of the regulations stated ahead of time. We work on a money system in my classroom, you earn money or owe money. So, being accountable there; my students know they owe money for not doing their homework and if they forgot it, they automatically go to their bank most of the time because they know the rules. I think it would become an issue if one student thinks another student should owe a dollar for something and that student doesn't feel like they should pay up... would be interesting to see how the students would handle that.
Those are some great questions! Reading your post and the comments makes me think that you may have to marry the student-led classroom to the Love and Logic model for discipline. If this happens, then this results. This would help kids understand that consequences flow logically from their actions.
I also agree with everyone's statements about needing consistency. Not only do you have to account for individual personalities and if they have tendencies towards being strict or lenient, but then as Stacy mentioned, looking at the effects of interpersonal relationships (Which, with some kiddos, might vary more than just morning/afternoon, but hour to hour! Yikes!)
My first thought too was having the kids develop class norms and consequences at the beginning of the year. Of course this always takes a little guidance as their consequences tend to be harsher than the ones we might have in mind.
Maybe the best way to be fair... You see one student do something and they get in trouble but if another student does the same thing and you miss it is that fair? I use Class Dojo and my para helps keep track of the points. Four eyes are better than two and it helps. The students know their parents can see their daily results and it motivates them to do their best as they rotate through their stations and get their work done.
I do not have an extra para with me in my classes so help see the things I miss. You are very lucky you have an extra set of eyes! It sounds like you probably do not have alot of behavior problems, that kids do not get away with alot in your class.
I think it'd be SO difficult to keep an eye on everything going on! There have been times when I've went in to observe a kiddo, and afterwards I start discussing a situation that happened in the classroom, and the teacher had NO IDEA that it'd even happened. And not that she's slacking, or a bad teacher, or anything like that, but it's just difficult to keep track of every little thing that happens in a classroom of 20 kids.
Some concerns I have are that much of the discipline would be self monitoring and redirection with in a peer group. There are some students who are more timid and expecting them to speak up to a peer who is off task would be very difficult for them. I am also concerned that my students who are easily distracted will have a difficult time with the noise level and activity that will naturally be going on around them during student based learning activities--will that prompt them to be a discipline problem?
I think I would have the same problem with the distractions. I even have some students who really can't be in a room if it is loud. Pretty much all my kids are easily distracted, but I think if they are working together it would be more learning/working than distracting.
I have thought about one of my student in particular while reading this book that would struggle with the noise level and the seemingly open format of a student led classroom. I also have some kids that like the control and would be very upset by students not following the "standard" classroom rules. It would be hard for this student to focus on their own group and actions.
I could see how students monitoring each other would be a difficult way to have discipline in place. I don't think it would be consistent, and some students would take advantage of the situation while others would work harder to make up for them.
I think this definitely is different for special educators. I do have some students that would be very good with this!! However, I have some students that it would have to be a little bit at a time, I have some students that wouldn't get much done at all if I wasn't constantly encouraging them to keep going. If I were to implement student lead classroom it would be a slow process.. the rules and regulations would would have to be very clear and practiced with a lot of repetition for this group of kiddos; but they have proven themselves with working hard and knowing their expectations in my class. As long as I am around the room they continue to work hard and ask for help when needed.
I agree it is different with special education. A little everyday and showing and doing my classroom expectations everyday is a good start for me. Being "actively present" is important. The students could lead the classroom, but I would have to make sure I am right there so they know that the classroom rules still need to be followed and applied.
I think I have some kids that would take the freedom of a student led classroom and go a little crazy with it. With any classroom the tone is really set at the beginning of the year with expectations and classroom climate. I think it is hard to back up once discipline is out of control, or getting out of control. I think it would be very important to set this at the beginning and even with a student led classroom they need to know and follow the limits and classroom expectations which need to be learned and followed early.
I also have those students who would go a little crazy with the freedom that comes with a student led classroom. Control is hard to regain once lost!!!
Since we loop with our students at the middle school, I deal with discipline the first few months with my 6th graders, but they then know what I expect and I do not have to deal with their behavior much the remainder of the 3 years they are in middle school. I really like that I am not wasting so much time dealing with establishing my classroom procedures and behavior expectations with new students every year.
I, too know some students that would go crazy with this. I think the administration would definitely need to be on board to help reinforce expectations and back up any issues of discipline, if needed.
I really like how his behavioral consequences are cumulative for only a day, or so it seems based on page 87. I like how each new day students get to start over and that he deals with different behaviors independently of each other and does not lump them all together as 1 misbehavior. I think if a teacher can do this students learn to deal with specific behaviors. Also each student getting a fresh start every day helps students from becoming discouraged and feeling like they can never get out of trouble! I wonder how many behavior points are given in step 2 before step 3 is implemented???
Some of my concerns are that some students will hang back and not engage, leaving others to carry their load. I also think that some students will become behavior problems because they are so attention seeking, unless the teacher has strategies to stop it at the beginning. I also wonder about the students who have never had the ability to choose what they do because they’ve been so regulated. Will those students be able to self-regulate enough to focus and stay on task, or what will the process be like to get them to self-regulate?
My two concerns are fair distribution of the work load and contributing to the group. Most of my students are not self-motivated and only get tasks completed when an adult hovers over them. Plus I could see some of my students choosing to do the easy part all the time and leaving their peers to do the rest. Plus their peers will do it since they want a good finished product.
My concern would be for those students who are highly distracted and how they will stay on task and get anything accomplished and learn. I see some students being very strong leaders and taking over and other students being intimidated by this and taking the back seat and not advocating for themselves nor becoming confident in their learning.
It seems like the student-led classroom is geared toward "teachable moments" more than it focuses on discipline. Solarz talks a lot about responsibility, accountability, and respect, but he doesn't talk much about consequences or discipline. He seems to have the approach put forward in Love and Logic. He corrects the behavior without embarrassing students or making them into discipline issues. The tough part about this is being organized, insightful, and consistent with this. This is tough to actually utilize in the classroom. It seems so much quicker to just deal with issues in the moment rather than planning for them, but actually the opposite is true. It only seems to make things more complicated when thinking about a true student-led classroom. It seems like I would need to get used to the flow of the class and the various activities going on around me before I would have a good grasp of how to discipline, correct, and teach.
It seems like in the beginning, a person might spend a lot of time on disciplining, especially if you have kiddos who aren’t very self-regulated, don’t care about school, or would just want to take advantage of the increased student freedom/responsibility that comes along with having a student led classroom. If things got off to a bad start right from the beginning, I think it’d be pretty discouraging to try to continue using this model, rather than just going back to what worked best for you before.
I absolutely love the idea of a student lead classroom but currently do not think I could implement it. The most I have in my room at one time is 3 students so it is difficult with such small numbers to begin something like this. With the group of 3 I have them set up on a routine and the know exactly what to do when they come in and begin it independently and will also transition to the next activity if they see it is set out and ready for them. Discipline can always be a struggle but the best way to control behavior is to implement the expectations and routine from day 1 and do not waiver from that as school continues.
I think a lot of preparation and thinking through all the likely issues would be needed. Students would need instruction and modeling for empathy, and becoming aware of other student's needs, such as a quieter work area.
There is a particular class (I have 4 students in this grade) here in the high school that presently does not have positive leaders. The leaders in the class use bullying, talking back to teachers, entertaining the class as tools to be in control. Lack of structure only makes this situation worse. I'm struggling with picturing a Student Led Classroom with this group of students. So far, this group has done no self-regulation.
ReplyDeleteAs for the interrelated room...some of my students don't have the cognitive ability to do a "student led classroom", although my team does that on a daily basis....adjusting to students needs.
I agree... You'd probably need a fairly high functioning class and more than 2-3 students.
DeleteI think that in order to have a student lead classroom the teacher would have to release control slowly. Especially in a class that has behavior issues. I also want to say that not every student or class is ready to have control. Our freshman this year are behaviorally horrible and I would not trust them to get anything done. However our seniors would be rock stars about it!
DeleteIt would be interesting to see if a teacher could present a project or topic and get buy in from this troublesome class. I think it would take a great deal of planning and thinking outside the box, though.
DeleteI have the same concerns for one of my classes. I really feel like my students are acting out because they A) want control and B) are not invested in class. On paper, the student-led classroom is a model to fix both of these issues, but I've found that an unsuccessful model can be worse than our current arrangement. This makes it difficult to keep trying...
DeleteMy concern would be on who does the discipline, and how it is administered. My hope would be that none would be needed, but that, depending on the class makeup probably would not happen.. I think that topic would have to be discussed and a plan set in place before starting the student led classroom. I can see some students being very strict, depending on who needed the discipline, and some letting a lot slide.
ReplyDeleteMaybe class rules / consequences that they help come up with. I do that at the beginning of the year and they are accountable. They also don't have to ask the consequence because they already know.
DeleteI can also see that if a student got irritated with another student earlier in the day, by the time they got a student led classroom in the afternoon they may still be holding an issue with them. So I would want to make sure they understand they need to be consistent!
DeleteI think that just has to be part of the regulations stated ahead of time. We work on a money system in my classroom, you earn money or owe money. So, being accountable there; my students know they owe money for not doing their homework and if they forgot it, they automatically go to their bank most of the time because they know the rules. I think it would become an issue if one student thinks another student should owe a dollar for something and that student doesn't feel like they should pay up... would be interesting to see how the students would handle that.
DeleteThose are some great questions! Reading your post and the comments makes me think that you may have to marry the student-led classroom to the Love and Logic model for discipline. If this happens, then this results. This would help kids understand that consequences flow logically from their actions.
DeleteI also agree with everyone's statements about needing consistency. Not only do you have to account for individual personalities and if they have tendencies towards being strict or lenient, but then as Stacy mentioned, looking at the effects of interpersonal relationships (Which, with some kiddos, might vary more than just morning/afternoon, but hour to hour! Yikes!)
DeleteMy first thought too was having the kids develop class norms and consequences at the beginning of the year. Of course this always takes a little guidance as their consequences tend to be harsher than the ones we might have in mind.
DeleteMaybe the best way to be fair... You see one student do something and they get in trouble but if another student does the same thing and you miss it is that fair? I use Class Dojo and my para helps keep track of the points. Four eyes are better than two and it helps. The students know their parents can see their daily results and it motivates them to do their best as they rotate through their stations and get their work done.
ReplyDeleteI do not have an extra para with me in my classes so help see the things I miss. You are very lucky you have an extra set of eyes! It sounds like you probably do not have alot of behavior problems, that kids do not get away with alot in your class.
DeleteI think it'd be SO difficult to keep an eye on everything going on! There have been times when I've went in to observe a kiddo, and afterwards I start discussing a situation that happened in the classroom, and the teacher had NO IDEA that it'd even happened. And not that she's slacking, or a bad teacher, or anything like that, but it's just difficult to keep track of every little thing that happens in a classroom of 20 kids.
DeleteSome concerns I have are that much of the discipline would be self monitoring and redirection with in a peer group. There are some students who are more timid and expecting them to speak up to a peer who is off task would be very difficult for them. I am also concerned that my students who are easily distracted will have a difficult time with the noise level and activity that will naturally be going on around them during student based learning activities--will that prompt them to be a discipline problem?
ReplyDeleteI think I would have the same problem with the distractions. I even have some students who really can't be in a room if it is loud. Pretty much all my kids are easily distracted, but I think if they are working together it would be more learning/working than distracting.
DeleteI have thought about one of my student in particular while reading this book that would struggle with the noise level and the seemingly open format of a student led classroom. I also have some kids that like the control and would be very upset by students not following the "standard" classroom rules. It would be hard for this student to focus on their own group and actions.
DeleteMany of my students who receive instruction in the general ed classroom struggle with distractions. They do much better with structured situations.
DeleteI could see how students monitoring each other would be a difficult way to have discipline in place. I don't think it would be consistent, and some students would take advantage of the situation while others would work harder to make up for them.
DeleteI think this definitely is different for special educators. I do have some students that would be very good with this!! However, I have some students that it would have to be a little bit at a time, I have some students that wouldn't get much done at all if I wasn't constantly encouraging them to keep going.
ReplyDeleteIf I were to implement student lead classroom it would be a slow process.. the rules and regulations would would have to be very clear and practiced with a lot of repetition for this group of kiddos; but they have proven themselves with working hard and knowing their expectations in my class. As long as I am around the room they continue to work hard and ask for help when needed.
I agree it is different with special education. A little everyday and showing and doing my classroom expectations everyday is a good start for me. Being "actively present" is important. The students could lead the classroom, but I would have to make sure I am right there so they know that the classroom rules still need to be followed and applied.
DeleteI think I have some kids that would take the freedom of a student led classroom and go a little crazy with it. With any classroom the tone is really set at the beginning of the year with expectations and classroom climate. I think it is hard to back up once discipline is out of control, or getting out of control. I think it would be very important to set this at the beginning and even with a student led classroom they need to know and follow the limits and classroom expectations which need to be learned and followed early.
ReplyDeleteI also have those students who would go a little crazy with the freedom that comes with a student led classroom. Control is hard to regain once lost!!!
DeleteSince we loop with our students at the middle school, I deal with discipline the first few months with my 6th graders, but they then know what I expect and I do not have to deal with their behavior much the remainder of the 3 years they are in middle school. I really like that I am not wasting so much time dealing with establishing my classroom procedures and behavior expectations with new students every year.
DeleteI, too know some students that would go crazy with this. I think the administration would definitely need to be on board to help reinforce expectations and back up any issues of discipline, if needed.
DeleteI agree, some kids can get power hungry! But hopefully they would see what that outcome would bring and change their ways. We learn from our mistakes.
DeleteI really like how his behavioral consequences are cumulative for only a day, or so it seems based on page 87. I like how each new day students get to start over and that he deals with different behaviors independently of each other and does not lump them all together as 1 misbehavior. I think if a teacher can do this students learn to deal with specific behaviors. Also each student getting a fresh start every day helps students from becoming discouraged and feeling like they can never get out of trouble! I wonder how many behavior points are given in step 2 before step 3 is implemented???
ReplyDeleteFor our kids with behavior goals, the way he separates behaviors would help monitor and change targeted behaviors.
DeleteSome of my concerns are that some students will hang back and not engage, leaving others to carry their load. I also think that some students will become behavior problems because they are so attention seeking, unless the teacher has strategies to stop it at the beginning. I also wonder about the students who have never had the ability to choose what they do because they’ve been so regulated. Will those students be able to self-regulate enough to focus and stay on task, or what will the process be like to get them to self-regulate?
ReplyDeleteMy two concerns are fair distribution of the work load and contributing to the group. Most of my students are not self-motivated and only get tasks completed when an adult hovers over them. Plus I could see some of my students choosing to do the easy part all the time and leaving their peers to do the rest. Plus their peers will do it since they want a good finished product.
ReplyDeleteMy concern would be for those students who are highly distracted and how they will stay on task and get anything accomplished and learn. I see some students being very strong leaders and taking over and other students being intimidated by this and taking the back seat and not advocating for themselves nor becoming confident in their learning.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like the student-led classroom is geared toward "teachable moments" more than it focuses on discipline. Solarz talks a lot about responsibility, accountability, and respect, but he doesn't talk much about consequences or discipline. He seems to have the approach put forward in Love and Logic. He corrects the behavior without embarrassing students or making them into discipline issues. The tough part about this is being organized, insightful, and consistent with this. This is tough to actually utilize in the classroom. It seems so much quicker to just deal with issues in the moment rather than planning for them, but actually the opposite is true. It only seems to make things more complicated when thinking about a true student-led classroom. It seems like I would need to get used to the flow of the class and the various activities going on around me before I would have a good grasp of how to discipline, correct, and teach.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like in the beginning, a person might spend a lot of time on disciplining, especially if you have kiddos who aren’t very self-regulated, don’t care about school, or would just want to take advantage of the increased student freedom/responsibility that comes along with having a student led classroom. If things got off to a bad start right from the beginning, I think it’d be pretty discouraging to try to continue using this model, rather than just going back to what worked best for you before.
ReplyDeleteI absolutely love the idea of a student lead classroom but currently do not think I could implement it. The most I have in my room at one time is 3 students so it is difficult with such small numbers to begin something like this. With the group of 3 I have them set up on a routine and the know exactly what to do when they come in and begin it independently and will also transition to the next activity if they see it is set out and ready for them. Discipline can always be a struggle but the best way to control behavior is to implement the expectations and routine from day 1 and do not waiver from that as school continues.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of preparation and thinking through all the likely issues would be needed. Students would need instruction and modeling for empathy, and becoming aware of other student's needs, such as a quieter work area.
ReplyDelete